The Early Internet & 9/11 Conspiracies – Jordan Klepper Fingers the Conspiracy

By | November 23, 2022

Jordan Klepper has heard a lot of 9/11 conspiracy theories at Trump rallies, including this shiny emerald: Osama bin Laden was a CIA operative named Tim Ossman. Together with Dr. Joan Donovan, research director of Harvard’s Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics and Public Policy, Jordan unpacks how the early days of the internet and social media have shaped 9/11 conspiracy theories that are still popping up in more places than rallies two decades later. They are joined by veteran and filmmaker Korey Rowe who co-produced “Loose Change,” one of the first viral conspiracy theory films on 9/11. They discuss the legacy of the film, how the right wing has weaponized conspiracy theories for political gain, and what conversations we should be having about the role of the media. #DailyShow #JordanKlepper #Podcast

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Think back 20 years maybe you were in School or college a friend comes up to You with a 20 bill they say check this Out and they start folding it in a kind Of weird way kind of in half then it Comes to a point then you realize it's The shape of the Pentagon and the image On the bill is now the Twin Towers with Smoke coming out of them what did the Government know about 911 before it Happened If you ever experienced that or if you Ever had that thought then congrats Alex Jones you're a 911 conspiracy theorist This is Jordan Clapper fingers the Conspiracy September 11th really was the Ground zero of conspiracy theories Chances are you can name one jet fuel Can't melt steel beams George Bush did It what about building seven Osama Bin Laden is a CIA operative named Tim What's that you don't know about that One well someone told it to me just a Few months ago at a trump rally people Are talking it's Bin Laden still [Music] Right now no I'm I'm trying to remember His real name Tim Osama Osama Bin Laden Yeah Tim Tim someone forgot his his last Name Tim is not the most Saudi name and He wasn't Saudi he's from the CIA Needless to say when we heard about Tim Bin Laden we were like let's get to the Bottom of this Huckleberry and even

Though our unverified non-tipster Couldn't remember Tim's real last name We found it his name is Tim Osman Totally fake guy but his name is Tim Osman so I want to go through this Conspiracy Theory with a person who is a Specialist in media manipulation and the Effects of disinformation Dr Joan Donovan the research director of the Shorenstein center on media politics and Public policy at Harvard Joan you ready To hear the story of a man named Tim Yeah I know a few Tim so interested to Find out if I knew him you you may know That this guy lives just down the street From you again disclaimer his name is Not Tim here we go let me walk through This for you guys so this Nutter butter Of a story starts in 1986 in Sherman Oaks California classic classic Bin Laden he's 28 at the time wearing Dockers and he's representing the Interests of the mujahideen in Afghanistan he's at a Hilton hotel in Sherman Oaks to meet a couple of feds And the name he's been assigned by the CIA is Tim Osman Now at the Hilton Osama bin Tim Osman Laden is told by the guys from the U.S Government that the CIA doesn't consider Their group truly representative of Afghans and Tim gets pissed he wants to Lobby the DC movers and shakers for Support now the theory claims there is

Evidence that Tim tours U.S military Bases other parts of the United States Including possibly the White House he's Even given special demonstrations of the Latest equipment pretty high-end stuff Now how do we know all this and by no I Mean how do we make it all up Because what are the Americans there to Meet Tim is a guy named Michael Reconciuto a man linked to the Chinese Industrial and military group Norinco Whose name is misspelled a dozen Different times on the most official Looking website explaining this Conspiracy theory he was apparently a Loose end and he had to be taken care of So he gets arrested Accused by the US Government of being delusional accusing Him of modifying something called Promise software in the desert which Obviously doesn't make sense because and I'm quoting from the website here sand Isn't good for computers I mean that's a fact so Rick and Judo Which sounds like a delicious appetizer Is put in prison and accused of making All this stuff up but if he were really Making it up then why is there evidence That the modifications to the computer Software was made in an office in nearby Indio California hmm That's the story of Tim Osmond rest in Power fake King it's a strange way into What is probably the original internet

Conspiracy theory 911 and that is why Joan is here first of all Joan Any reactions to the tale of Tim Osman Sounds legit uh Clearly Digging up facts and and we've got you Know layers of editors and others that Have been activated you know hundreds of Thousands of dollars must have been Spent on this investigation so I'm on Board you buy it and you're a pro here Well of course of course uh you know What's interesting about things like This is essentially when you're being Told something that is illicit Information that you feel like you're Getting information that nobody else has It does make you listen closer it makes You want to dig deeper and when it comes To the early internet uh we you know we Think a lot about well what are you know What isn't government telling us right And and you have all of this new Information that you have access to and So the moment when uh the attacks on 9 11 happened we all were concerned but None of us really knew what the internet Was at that point you didn't even have Major news organizations taking you know Their websites very seriously at that Stage and so if you were going online to Find information about what happened During 9 11 and you were digging in you Would be drawn in by the novelty and the

Outrageousness of stories like this and You may uh then find yourself moving Between a network of websites and Message boards discussing uh these Theories and others and so it's it's Unsurprising but also we've had you know 20 years of this now and it still looks A lot like that when we look at 9 11 Conspiracy theories Where do we start where do you begin to Hone in I recently published publish a Book with my co-authors called meme Wars And in the book we wanted to explain how Basically The internet affects how people Understand politics and communication And so we decided to go back into Looking at occupy and what we were Interested in occupy was understanding The rise of Alex Jones And as we were digging in we couldn't Ignore the fact that Alex Jones was also One of the uh major contributors to 911 Conspiracy theories but it wasn't the Same then it wasn't like he was online Pushing this so much he had a lot of uh Television uh stations that were airing His show and a few months I think it was July 25th before uh September 11th he Had a show where he was showing people The white house uh number and suggesting People call Congress and say we know a Terrorist attack is about to happen we Know that Bin Laden is going to be

Involved they're going to blame it on Him and you as a listener have a role to Play And I won't want you to believe Alex Jones I want you to go get these new Stories off my website I want you to Call these major newspapers I want you To find out these statements were true By the White House about preparing for Martial law And I want you to let them know that if There is any terrorism we know who to Blame and that participatory Conspiracy being part of the action is Something that Alex Jones has been able To to Really hone in on and bring people Into these uh worlds Um as part of his media making I mean You said you're saying some and you're Saying this is July of 2001 too so There's people who are paying attention They're hearing this before it happens And see this happening and draw a Connection that gives validity to a lot Of his theories does that building it Builds his base and but it what it does Is it actually he actually loses uh his Television Um uh Network so uh it people are you Know this is kind of crazy this is Really out there uh you know it's very Obviously xenophobic in some ways Although cancel culture wasn't really a Thing then uh you you could be openly uh

Xenophobic or islamophobic and all the Good old days the good old days before Yeah before you when you could get away With it right Um but by and large when we were trying To study at the rise of other kinds of Political Communication online we did Keep coming back to 9 11 conspiracies And especially memes like uh jet fuel Can't melt steel beams why do we even Remember that turn of phrase 911 is an Inside job uh you know these turns of Phrase can become very potent and Popular and and they they're really Sticky and so they those kinds of Um Key phrases also became really important Uh explainers or shorthand for groups of People that had started to come together Uh on message boards and in in email Lists that eventually be called it Became to be called truthers now I think What's interesting about this you know And on this podcast we're looking at a Bunch of different conspiracy theories And we often talk about how these things Spread on social media and the internet Looking at this as one of the Uh the the birth of these types of Conspiracy theories uh it's also the Birth of the internet at the time how Can you give us a little bit of Background of how the internet is being Used at this this point and how how

People are using it to pass information How people are getting information Understanding these theories so this is Before social media so we're not in the Era of social networks in the same way That we think about early Facebook or Early Twitter uh but we are finally Starting to have high-speed internet in Our homes which allows for the Transmission of video and this is a Really important aspect of how we Understand Um the world around us because it's no Longer that you're getting your video From uh cable Um stations it's no longer that strictly And this opens up a whole new world of Broadcast Creativity in Innovation and at that Moment there were a lot of people who Were going online making videos making Content that were anti-mainstream media And I would say that in that time even When I was using uh the internet then I Was someone who would consume these Kinds of videos I wanted to know more About what was going on in the world I Didn't always trust mainstream Outlets I Certainly didn't trust the government I Mean I'm a child of the Rage Against the Machine generation right so we always Want to question and ask more and so but Online everything is done through Hyperlinks at this point so you're on a

Website there's a page on the website With a bunch of links and so you're Really traveling through this very Um Labyrinth-like information ecosystem Where people are linking you to things Or your following sets of links and you Never really know where you're going to End up but you always take it With a grain of salt you think about it There's no institutional power behind This message you don't always know where You're getting the information from so You approach it with a kind of radical Skepticism at that stage back then The internet was really a place for Weirdos and Geeks and people who wanted To understand more about the world and And we're sharing things For the Love of one another and I Thought that was really you know it was Is actually kind of a nice time in a Weird way Um because you could find your people I Remember entering in with skepticism Around that time as well and partially Because of my lack of familiarity with This new tool right it feels as if Everybody was skeptical in certain ways Because we weren't experts on it we Didn't really know how this was working Or what we get information on but it was Sort of like the Wild West in a very Curious way and perhaps I'm speaking

More to myself of somebody who's always Afraid of taking big steps into the Unknown so I was always cautious about Those things I I guess I'm curious about Uh at that time what kind of Conversations or were there Conversations about the internet and how It should be regulated and used so in 1996 there's this Landmark legislation That is essentially a legislation of Decontrol it says section 230 Essentially says that websites or Computer Services is are able to Moderate content as they wish but They're not going to be held responsible For the content on their services so That means that if you're a server You're an email host or your domain Registrar if someone if some crazy Person puts up stuff that's illegal it's Not your fault right you're just Providing this basic infrastructure and Is so that law gets passed and you start To see different web services Blossom and you see Um groups of people still feel like they Have Mastery over the means of Communication they are able to build Their own servers they're able to Register their domains and so Essentially at that time online Regulators and many people using the Internet were very optimistic that there Weren't going to be these major crimes

Committed did most legislation or people Were concerned with Um child pornography as we know Um or maybe people don't know but the The internet's backbone and The Innovation around the internet actually Came about as uh the pornography Industry came online and so The way in which we remember internet History Um as a professor I'm always telling my Students you know like it was really you Know it matured around pornography and So it's not like that we endeavored to Build an Internet that was going to be The place for uh you know this free and Open library of information where Everybody's getting access to the World's knowledge I like you remember AOL right follow the porn that's I mean That's always been the history right Isn't it also the Innovation towards Home movies uh like allowing people to Watch it at home primarily came because People wanted to watch pornography at Home and so the technology follows the Porn if only if we could only aim Pornography at a working democracy That's what I mean then we can Technologically get to a good place and Yes it'll be like oh thank God we have a Lovely democracy that responds to the Needs of its people how do we get here Well people wanted to watch Democratic

Porn fine okay it's weird it's a little Strange but no King shaming here no King Gaming as long as my vote counts but if You think about it then as as we Describe the history of the internet and We're not talking about then like you Know we want people to have access to Legal uh you know law libraries and we Want people to have you know access to The greatest science a lot of that stuff Is still behind paywalls and so At that time the early internet Um you know maybe the wild west doesn't Really even describe it Um but it was a bit of a free-for-all And the major Innovations weren't you Know necessarily tied to any particular Like public interest or social good and So Conspiracy theories and conspiracy Communities were not just a place where You could you know would jump in and say Things and contribute but these were Also communities where people thought That they were uh building some kind of Knowledge some kind of um resistance to The Establishment right and so the Internet had in its infancy this uh Relationship to Liberation this Relationship to if we had the facts and We were able to communicate freely we Wouldn't need government right and so There is a kind of techno libertarian Uh ethic that undergirds the rise of

These kinds of communities online I love It I want to take a quick break and when We come back we'll be joined by Corey Rowe a filmmaker who created one of the First viral conspiracy films about 9 11. We'll be right back Uh welcome back to Jordan Clapper Fingers the conspiracy this week we're Talking about Osama Bin Laden and his Apparently Rich history as a guy named Tim from California who turned into a CIA operative and we're also going to Look at a few theories about what Happened in the wake of 9 11. I'm here With Joan Donovan who you've been Hearing from but we also have Corey Rowe With us today Corey's a filmmaker and a Veteran a few years after 9 11 he made a Film that went crazy viral called loose Change it was one of the first Conspiracy theory films on 9 11 and Since then a lot has happened both for The aftermath of the film and for Corey Himself so we're going to talk about Some of that Corey thanks for being here Thanks for having me on let's talk a Little bit about Loose Change how did You get involved in making this film Uh I was a soldier in Afghanistan and Iraq and my best friend Dylan Avery uh Tim and I were communicating from you Know him in the United States and myself Overseas and you know just talking back And forth and largely kind of came from

A place of Dylan didn't really know what Was going on with me uh and different Things of that nature and you know Started to just kind of dig into things No it is it correct it started out as a Fictional narrative story and then Morphed into becoming more of a Documentary style film Yes that is correct Dylan Avery who is The director of the film you know he was Always aspirational he always wanted to Make a movie and uh he started to write A script in the Post 9 11 era and then In doing so and re you know writing that Script he was doing a lot of research About September 11th and uh you know on The internet researching different Things and coming across different Information that the films started to Split kind of from like a narrative and Then there were sections of documentary And then he did his first screening and The the immediate response was like this Documentary is very interesting you Should drop all that narrative stuff Because we had no ability to act uh or Do anything of that nature and our Cameras were terrible and uh you know it Was basically still like uh pre-dslr Days and we had no money or equipment to Actually make a movie uh but he did have The ability to kind of edit together you Know small chunks of information on a Laptop which was really uh new

Technology at that time the fact that we Were even able to get a camera at all And a laptop and be able to shoot Content and edit that on you know C was Revolutionary at that time and it was Really intriguing for us as young men And as myself coming out of the military It was technology that I was interested In and it was something that I enjoyed Doing uh you know shooting footage and I Started to do it while I was in the Military making videos for my Battalion And things of that nature and then once I got out after my second tour I joined Dylan in DC uh and he was already in the Process of releasing loose change and I Just kind of came on board to help him Uh produce that film and really get it Out there as much as possible and it Just caught on to things that were Really early on at that time Google Video which is kind of the predecessor To YouTube was just coming online and it Was a way that we were able to share Information uh and we didn't even really Do it a lot we we uploaded like a Version of the movie in English and then Other people all around the world would Download it and they would change it Into their language German Korean Different things of that nature and then Re-upload it to Google video and during I think it was 2005 and 2006 lose change Held you you know the first top video

Positions from 1 to 18 and all these Different languages and it was just Again was taking off in a way that Nobody expected and nobody really could Have foreseen it was just kind of the Culmination of perfect circumstances Between technology that was available to Filmmakers early on the growth of the Internet as you guys have been talking About Um as well as you know and this is Really I think the big thing is at that Time there was a huge response to the Bush Administration you know you guys Just talked a lot about why you know That these groups kind of came together And that that 911 was the beginning of The digital conspiracy theory which I Agree with it just kind of it was all a Response because the Bush Administration Wasn't investigating 9 11. at a certain Point The Jersey Girls Who were victims Of the 911 uh were family members and 9 11 victims were demanding investigation Into 9 11 and the Bush Administration Who was already entrenched in war in Afghanistan was like no we're not going To investigate this we're focused on the War right now and that's when there Started to be this like huge uprising of People are like why won't you Investigate it you know what are you Trying to hide and then you know for People like myself who are overseas and

Fighting these wars it was you know also You know disheartening and then you have Movies like Michael Morris Fahrenheit 911 that were coming out and so there Was a lot of anti-war anti-bush Administration feelings within the Nation that really caused these things To kind of culminate in different areas And once they did investigate 911 and They came out with the 911 Commission Report of course there was a large Uproar to that as well because it really Wasn't efficient a sufficient Investigation and didn't answer most of The questions that the family members Were asking for in the first place which Is I believe why society and members of That Society like myself reacted in the Way that we did to create media that was To educate people about things that Could potentially be going on so they Got more you know invested with the Bush Administration and what they were doing Walk me through your headspace a little Bit there Corey because so uh we're Talking you're getting involved around 2004 2005. is that correct yeah how old Are you at the time uh I was 22 coming Out of the military 22 and you're you're In Iraq yeah actually I turned 19 in Iraq I turned I was uh I turned 19 Afghanistan and then I turned 20 Iraq Sorry uh that was the exact years you're In Afghanistan and then you're now how

Are you feeling soldier in Iraq how are You feeling uh you know early on like Everybody I drank the Kool-Aid uh There's even news articles out there of My hometown paper saying you know Terrorism's got to be dealt with uh but It was in Afghanistan that we were told That we were going to Iraq well before The general public was and then I got to Live that firsthand Um you know knowing that knowledge Coming back to the United States seeing Them drum up the the war effort for Iraq With the false intelligence that we all Know is false intelligence now that we Directly lied to the American people and Murdered innocent people in Iraq let's Say what it was are you feeling this and Doubting that as you are in Iraq you Know I remember a very specific Conversation in the emergency room of Medical City in Baghdad with a father Whose daughter's head was blown off and He was like this is what's going to Happen he goes you guys came in here and We have let you do what you you're doing And he's like it's going to get worse And it's going to keep getting worse and Until you guys leave because we will Never stop and this is what's happening Is you're killing innocent people like My daughter and guess what exactly what He described to me on the first wave of That invasion is what I saw not only on

My Invasion but every subsequent one After that as it just continuously got Worse as one Administration handed it to The next and things in that region of The world just turned into absolute Garbage so personally for somebody who Me you know who who you know stepped Forward and was fighting for the American government and then to learn That they're just basically lying to the American people so that them and their Buddies have a blank check to rip off American taxpayers and then it's like All right well we should probably have a Conversation about this as citizens of Our country right because this is [ __ ] Up I'm sorry I'm just going to say for What it is like this was a terrible time In American history where the government Was just running amok and and citizens Were genuinely upset and concerned you Know and that's that's where we you know What I like to really focus on is the Fact of where these kind of things came From it's fascinating to hear that's the Story we don't get to to know like what What what you're walking into where You're coming from as as you start to Put together Loose Change I guess so you Have your experience in Iraq it clearly Affects your point of view and your Opinion towards the American government Clearly a lot of distrust in the Information you're getting and uh did

You see the internet the way that Joan Has kind of described it as a place to To find Community I guess first of all do you first go and Find porn and then like oh I could also Use this as a place to find community And or to to put out information seek Out information is your take on the Internet at that time similar what my Take is on the Internet is kind of a Cause and reaction that we always see Throughout human society as we continue To evolve right information was growing And things were happening and so this This these things started to go in One Direction or the other and it's really The largest question here is can human Nature can humans survive mass Communication which is what we're really At the beginning of here at the Beginning of the internet was and so for Me to just kind of see all this Different stuff was crazy but for us it Was definitely a way to to what I would Call weaponized information we were able To use these new platforms to get stuff Out there in a way that was never done Before so Dylan's a filmmaker and even At the idea is let's create something Narrative and successful in that sense Did things shift and you saw yourselves As as activists as opposed to filmmakers Uh at some point yeah definitely I mean You know we were given a pretty big hat

To where it wasn't something that we Asked for we were young kids would be The best Messengers for that of course Not Dylan just made a great video that Was you know very uh that was caught by People's you know people could receive It or they liked it or you know what About whatever about it was something Was new and like she said you know they Felt like they were on the inside of Information and so it grew exponentially And you know there was you know memes Later on about you know college kids Pickup lines was have you seen loose Change and that kind of thing but it Definitely morphed like we were talking About two very different eras of time Here we're talking about the creation of Loose change in the base of the internet And then where we are today which is Wildly different right we'll get into Some of the content of loose change and Also where we are today Joan I want to Bring you in here Loose Change becomes Some say one of the first viral hits What some something like 100 million People watched it were affected by it What was it that made it go viral from Your perspective Joan did we have even a Concept of virality at the time when This was launched in 2006 no well the Thing The thing to go viral online at that Time were you know still what goes viral

These days which is pictures of animals Cats uh you know funny memes Um and you have to remember that like a Video is is new at that stage right and So uh but what really uh was this Groundswell of Interest was Small groups sharing this link getting Involved in discussions about This uh a film and and this documentary And the community around it that we're Also digging out different pieces of Information and putting them putting This really big puzzle together Um on message boards where people were Communicating with one another and Trying to add to the story right and and In that way Um the early internet is highly Participatory and I think that one of The things you don't get with Um the kind of conspiracy that we would Think of with JFK is the narratives come Down but there's not a lot of ways in Which you can interact with the Narrative you can believe it or not but With uh 911 conspiracism you had this Ongoing day daily dialogue that you Could participate in and that you could Add to and so uh that community building And even this idea that you were a truth Seeker uh rather than someone that was Merely just you know consuming what the Mainstream media was telling you and you Were like this drone that was uh just

Living your life right you weren't going To look away you were gonna look further And further and deeper and deeper into This and people were meeting each other They were having uh you know conventions They were making names together and Sharing them and so it was a highly Participatory moment for the culture and Because you thought that you were Finding things that government and other Um Groups were keeping from you uh that Really made you want to dig in more and Understand more and the military Component I think is really important Here because when people feel like They're being lied to and the democracy Is at stake they're willing to do things That they otherwise wouldn't have been Willing to do and so at the same time Not just online you have these Um uh media that's traveling but you Also have a a fairly intense anti-war Movement that is consuming this Information and then bringing it into The streets and trying as best as they Can to stop uh U.S uh imperialism Corey I know you don't uh think of Yourself as a conspiracy theorist and Then you have you have passionate views About right-wing conspiracy like Alex Jones what's the cleanest way to Separate in your view what the Difference is between you and someone

Like like Alex Jones Alex Jones is Definitely someone who's turned this Into you know a money making operation He's become very wealthy out of this and He's gotten himself into very uh High Political places I mean let's remember And again this is something I really Need to harp on here because we've had a Whole conversation about conspiracy Theories and we need to talk about when This really got out of control because For a long time this 911 conspiracy Stuff kind of really quieted down my Life had moved on people weren't talking About this anymore I wasn't getting Nearly the messages that I still get to This day until the candidate of Donald Trump came around and that candidate of Donald Trump utilized Alex's Alex Jones's platform to promote himself and To align himself with this kind of base Of people and then decided to use that In his you know presidential career with The assistance of Fox News to perpetuate These conspiracy theories on a level That's never been seen before again You're talking we're talking about two Very different things here two 20 year Old kids who made a you know college Level movie and put it out for free on The internet and then the president of The United States utilizing Fox News to Weaponize conspiracy theories to ignite A base to try to overthrow the country

And then now we're in this kind of post Era and they use this and they took this And what's so ironic about it it's the Same group of people that hated us when We made this video because we were Anti-war we were leftists we were Liberals we didn't want to we were Pacifists I'm you know I'm not into guns And that kind of [ __ ] uh and so now to Have the same people that hated us using This material to propagate their own Nonsense is kind of very interesting to Me uh and furthermore on ons Alex Jones Like you know obviously we're talking About him he just got hit with a about a Billion dollar fine after you tie in Legal fees and all those different Things as as he as he should and so Let's really focus on what that is That's the the shooting and the fact That he's claiming that the people were Actors and all that nonsense right and So that what's the difference between Those two events between 9 11 and and Sandy Hook 911 was a response by family Members in an era when there was Information that wasn't being Disseminated to the American public and It was not only conspiracy theorists who Were interested in that information the American Media was perpetuating 911 for Decades afterwards with every little bit Of new information that was coming out Uh but back to you know Sandy Hook that

Kind of conspiracy came up within a Couple months and it was generated on The Internet by people who were not Directly related to the event which is Very different than the 911 situation Where this took years to culminate and So for us we were coming from a place Where we were trying to do what we Believed was honorable using using the Things that we had available to us at The time and we believed in what we were Doing and we were trying to make it the Most scholarly piece of evidence that we Could put out there and we always that's Why we did so many revisions and that's Why we kind of removed things and we Admitted to our mistakes and we Consistently tried to just have a Conversation about it so that we could Always get a new investigation and that Was always our aim and the reason we Wanted that new investigation was to Support the family members who also Wanted that new investigation into 9 11 And never they never got it what what is Your what is your relationship with with It now uh knowing where we're at Obviously we're in a very different Place than we were we're we're across Social media is very different now and Like you're an older person information Has come out there's distrust across the Board and I know you guys have revised The film but there's even a cottage

Industry that sprung up to debunk Theories that you guys were putting out There as well like how do you see that Film uh currently I mean I'm the Producer of that film and I will be for The rest of my life so my job is to make Sure that it doesn't disappear uh Because it's such an important piece of Information that we need to analyze and Have a conversation about and I also Think you still you still have the same Questions about uh 911 that you had in That film do you have those today There's definitely you know there's a Lot that film was put out 20 years ago Right and during that time so much more Information has come out from the from The United States government with Redacted documents and different things Of that nature but there's still some Major questions for me that need to be Answered if this is this brings up A lot of interesting questions and it's A delicate conversation I think Corey I can see Um I I think you bring up something that I Think a lot of people uh on the left on The right are grappling with right now Uh we should be skeptical of our Government and the institutions around Us and I think we're looking for what That line is of what is healthy Skepticism and what is skepticism that

Is uh degrading faith in institutions uh I think there are there are critics of Um something like loose change and some Of these the truth or movement uh They're critics that live within uh Victims families who feel like this Um takes uh the responsibility off of The people who perhaps perpetuated uh The horror of 9 11 and it adds Disinformation out there that it it Erodes faith in institutions but I'm I'm Sure there's we should be more skeptical Of the institutions and the information That we have I think there's an argument Too of If some people would argue that what You're putting out there is Misinformation it's also in response to A government that is putting out Misinformation you're fighting a war in Iraq that is based on misinformation Which puts us in this [ __ ] place Right now where Where it doesn't feel like we're getting Healthy good information Joan I think I Look to you when it comes to theories Where is the healthy line how do we show Distrust in uh positions of power Without eroding distrust or eroding Trust in sort of our society Well I what's interesting about Government or the state is I don't think There's anybody that's ever been really Satisfied with the state I don't think

That there's a uh Utopia anywhere where People are like you know who's doing a Good job our government right like it's Just not something you hear right Especially as we get into different Issues but uh back in the early odds People were using you know there was a Familiar meme going around Bush live People died right and and he had made These statements about quote unquote a Massive stockpile of biological weapons Other had others had argued that um you Know uh well we don't know if there are Nuclear weapons but we're pretty sure You know and so there was a lot of Hedging back then about uh what to do And how to do it but when you say Massive stockpile Um and people are doubting that it tends The governments tend to double down on That information we've seen that Meme Repeated over and over Obama lied people Died you know Trump lied people died it Keeps coming up right and I think that As we imagine the role of government in Our lives and what governments should And could be responsible for we're at Another crossroads right now with Um the role of NATO in the Ukrainian and Uh Russian uh war going on and is it the Fact that NATO is fighting a proxy war With uh you know and with Ukraine Suffering all of the uh serious serious Casualties and so I think that it's

Important for people to be skeptical of Of governments and very powerful people Making these decisions when it comes to Massive casualties now That doesn't mean we should just throw Our arms in the air and say everything Is endlessly corrupt and there's nothing We can do because I do at the end of the Day and I think maybe Corey agrees with Me I I do believe in the power of people And the power of people to come together To formulate their own ideas to dig in And look at what kind of evidence is out There and we do need to have uh more Facts and public interest information Circulate throughout our society and the Last point I'll make on this Um which is to say I think we need a lot More journalism I think we need a lot More investigation I think when it comes To who's going to hold these people Accountable it's going to be uh Journalists who are going to be able to Get the goods I don't think we can rely On Um law enforcement and those other kinds Of Institutions to get to the bottom of Corrupt government it just doesn't Really seem to be doing the job Journalists have always played this role Of digging in finding and piecing Together uh different bits of Information and creating that narrative And so in many ways Corey and and those

That made Loose Change Um weren't necessarily your traditional Style journalists but they do Um are they are the archetype of this Early form of digital journalism where People were doing more than asking Questions but really trying to make Media to mobilize audiences and to get People to think differently and Hopefully what it does is it instills in People a skeptical attitude about how do You critique and understand information How do you piece it together And then Further than that how do you hold Accountable people in power that are Telling massive lies and I think that That's where the the big question about Studying disinformation comes in right Now is because Um we don't necessarily know who's going To hold the very very rich and and Powerful uh to account for spreading Lies at scale I think the most recent Example of that is is trying to Understand Who is responsible for the January 6th Insurrection and and what does that mean To hold someone responsible for an event Like that uh Corey when you look at the Information on the internet who should We trust to ask these questions and what Information should we be trusting on the Internet

Um I think we're in such a great zone Right now that we don't have an answer To that and I think what we need to kind Of come to terms with is the fact that We as a society won't have an answer to That but I think and this is my idea This is my solution this is where the Line is Um for me is that we need to educate our Children better right from the start if You ask any kid in America right now What were Columbus's three ships they'll Tell you right and so we know how to Teach our children good information we Just need or we know how to teach our Children information we just need to Make that good information and so I Think we need to kind of just accept the Fact that the where we are right now is Kind of where we are and of course we Need to Tombstone engineer that as best We can but we need to do our research on How this misinformation is affecting us And how it's driving us and the things Like Joan is doing and trying to to Grapple with and then figure out a way That we can instill that information Into our children early on so that they Grow up with the right tools to be able To discern good information from bad and I think that's a solution of course it's Not perfect but it at least pushes in The right direction and it's very much What like Joan said there's no Utopia

Humans aren't perfect and we never will Be and so we need to just kind of keep Working towards something better and Leave it better than we found it and so In this instance with this new digital Age we have created this new weapon of Mass communication and we need to figure Out how it really adjusts to humans and How we can use it as a benefit instead Of what we've created which is this kind Of individualistic Society where Everybody thinks they're the center of The universe and figure it and Tool it Retool it into something that's more Beneficial for society you know like how Is how is the societies of the 2100s Going to be using the internet can we Envision that can we envision how they Transmit information good information Factual information and try to reverse Engineer that for our own society and Start to implement those rules so that We can get to that place for the Next Generation because as I see it right now Our current Generations we just got to Let us go we're done like we don't even Have a chance oh come on come on okay I Don't know it's a very optimistic point Of view I've been watching Jordan's Pieces and I like what I see out there Is like scary so like I'm not sure There's a ever coming back from that Right and and we think Trump was so bad Wait till the next one comes down

Because when I was in the Army the one Thing I always had a new first sergeant Like every eight months and I was hoping That the next first sergeant would be Better than the last one and he was Never better he was always worse and it Always been new rules and restrictions And uh and so I mean I hope you know I Used to be optimistic like 10 years ago Right we all used to be optimistic but Then the last 10 years happened and now We're a lot more pessimistic uh uh we'll Put a bow on this and I wanna we're Gonna talk about a couple other things But uh kind of the final question for Both of you uh within this segment here Uh what what do you think the legacy of Loose change is Corey I I think Loose Change is the first viral video of the Internet it's the only documentary that People are still talking about now all These years later there's a lot of Different stuff comes out and I'm proud Of that fact like I helped make a piece Of media that was like truly just long He's gonna live past me probably and That's cool and what I think it's turned Into is the digital version of a Banned Book and and we need you know and then The statement goes any banberg any Banned Book is worth reading right and So again I think that Loose Change needs To exist on the internet so that we can Have the conversations about it are

Humans going to continuously use pieces Of information like loose change or Anything else to you know push their own Views of course they are that's human Nature and it doesn't matter if it's Loose change or Zeitgeist or something They saw on Fox News they're going to Use whatever they need to use to Propagate their point of view but I like To look back at loose change as the Culmination of a amazing series of Events that nobody could have seen Coming and it really did Rock the world Like it still goes on to this day and What's super interesting about it is how It's morphed throughout these years and To me to see you know how it's been used Incorrectly by other people especially American presidents and Alex Jones and And these different people we we need to Latch on to that not and not be afraid Of it we need to understand why it's Happening and do the studies that that She's talking about so that we can Understand why these things happen and Then again equip our our children to be Able to deal with them better I was not Trained for the society that I was Pushed into right in high school I was Like Hey we're gonna do this Nina pint To Cinderella's Case Columbus Day and Then you know on my 18th birthday Essentially I'm invading Afghanistan and Then on my 19th birthday I'm invading uh

You know Iraq and I get to live Firsthand at this early stage in my life Seeing the American uh you know foreign Policy just as horrible as it really is And I mean imagine the psychological Like just breakdown that I went through As a human being trying to understand That everything that you were raised to Believe in is an utter lie like and and That it's just complete facade and the Thing that you think was you were Believing in is long long gone Joan what do you see the legacy of loose Change as I think in EO evidence presented in it but it's Part of a moment where Um you know Corey I appreciate you Talking about how it was translated into Many different languages people felt That they could pick it up and take Elements of it translate elements of it And make it their own and it really Shows us how this kind of participatory Internet culture was going to develop Was that people were going to take Information they were going to remix it In many ways uh and you know no no shade Corey but we don't even remember the Authors of it right like it's Anonymous In that sense it becomes a piece of the Culture and you know clips of it people I'm sure will remember and memes that Come out of it are definitely something

That have lived on but by and large it Was you know born of the internet and Then created and became the Infrastructure and the in the content on Which many different kinds of Communities base their uh World Views And I think that when you come into Contact with that uh those ideas very Early on as you're making your identity And I'm you know I'm sure 18 other People in your life were either going Off to college or starting new Businesses or uh you know Um not going to war but it was um you Know it was a really unique time in American culture uh with the Technological shifts that people were uh Grappling with and the uncertainty we Don't the thing that 911 itself Introduces to the American psyche is That uh it can happen here that the war Can be brought home and as a result you Get this uh a paranoia in society about The other and about being attacked and You don't feel as if you have uh Protection and security from the Government and so finding one another And and using information and and Building knowledge together becomes an Incredibly powerful mode of solidarity And I think that you know as the Internet has progressed and things have Changed those groups of people that Found each other in those uh moments

After 9 11 that we're sharing Um these kinds of theories Uh continue to be in community with one Another and continue to be uh critical Of the state and the last thing I'll add About This moment especially around conspiracy Is sometimes times communities have to Use conspiracy as a way to protect Themselves from uh governments and Government overreach it's not uncommon For if you take a a situation like Flint Where people were saying there's Something wrong with the water there's Something going on and people are really Dismissive at the beginning of the Flint Water Crisis because people hadn't Really learned how to do science and and To build science around the pollution in Flint and so sometimes Rumors and conspiracy can help Communities come together and focus on a Problem and uh and sometimes it's it's True and I think that elements of what Came out of loose change or out of that Moment that we would have called Conspiracy end up challenging power and Becoming an important uh way in which we Resist uh tyranny and author Authoritarianism yeah well we need to Take a quick break but when we come back I want to dive into how social media Companies are dealing with Disinformation in 2022 or if they even

Are at all Welcome back everybody Joan uh if Posting a conspiracy theory on YouTube Is Media manipulation is the company That lets it remain posted participating In that manipulation Well it's a good question right now Um legally the answer is is no uh Although there is an interesting case That's being picked up by the Supreme Court where uh there was some terrorism Content that was posted on YouTube and The terrorists made money off of it Because it was monetized and so now the Supreme Court is trying to figure out if YouTube was Funding terrorism Essentially and so that is a very unique Thing though but by and large companies Get a big pass on their products being Used to spread conspiracy Um it's only been since about 2018 that Companies have decided that they're Going to enforce terms of service around Uh lies and disinformation I think in 2018 was the first time we saw Infowars And Alex Jones get de-platformed he's Probably one of the most famous uh People that have been moved off of these Platforms and that had a lot to do with Public pressure by activists and Advertisers to ensure that the Information that was being provided on These platforms even if it was

Entertainment was not defamatory Libelous hate harassment or incitement The question always becomes you know Where is that line and if you if you Have to censor him for this then you Have to censor this person for this and Before long no one can say anything and I mean I've dealt with this personally As well like loose change lived on YouTube for years it's had hundreds of Millions of views so many people have Put it up I had it on my own channel Just because I needed to a place to park It for free so that people could see it Analyze I have conversations about it What have you and of course you know Over the years people have complained to YouTube about it and they would send me Warnings about it and things of that Nature but one day essentially right After around 2018 I just one day got an Email from YouTube and it was like we've Taken down news change for hate speech Uh you can't uh you can't fight against This this is just something we're gonna Do and of course I write back like what Exactly is the hate speech within loose Change because there's nothing in Loose Change that's trying to incite a riot There's nothing in it that's defamatory Towards anybody and it's just a it's a Piece of information after information That we're putting forward and so YouTube has the ability as a content

Provider to not allow me to put my video On them and and that's their business And and that's that I understand I think That's a great line for companies to Have the ability to shut those things Off I think it was amazing that Twitter Was able to turn off Donald Trump right And I hope he never comes back but at The same time these are all crazy people They're going to keep talking it's our Responsibility not to listen to them There's you know I'm driving through Amsterdam New York the other day there's A guy in the bus station just yelling at Everybody that drives by if I stop and Listen to him and start broadcasting him On National Television well that's more On me and and the people watching than The person who's yelling at the bus Station Um and so at my point we need to be able To live our life we need to be a free Person in a world and not because we're Americans but because we're humans and You have the right to live your life and As long as you don't hurt another person Physically alter the you know change Their life in any way then you should Have the ability to live your life However you want and then we're seeing That pushback between regulation the State and people who want to live their Life and do their own thing and you know Self-identify as a cat what we're but

We're in a tricky spot though right now Right like you you keep talking about Um loose change or all these things as Pieces of information and you're right We should be able to have access to Information to have conversations around Information I'd love to live in a Society that can have complicated Thoughtful conversations uh that can be Extended and interesting sadly it Doesn't feel like we're in that Society Very often but Putting something controversial on an Online space might not just be Information anymore I mean it is an act That incites distrust it is it's an act That could incite Um excitement and interest and curiosity For sure but I don't know if it is Neutral anymore and so is it is it a Cop-out to say it's just information Alex Jones can put that out there it's Just information like this information Has a reaction and causes a reaction it Is and people should be held accountable When that information takes things to The next level and again why I was never Invited on The Daily Show before Donald Trump right even when Loose Change was At its Heyday like it would you guys Wouldn't even talk about it and now 20 Years later post Donald Trump were Having these conversations not because a DVD was made 20 years ago but because a

President used the national platform to Propagate lies to the American people Which caused them to try to over Overthrow the United States capital and Every single person that was there Should be held accountable and they Should be put in jail and the President Should be held accountable and we should Learn from that as a country and as a Society and that's the line right Because if you go over line you start to Hurt other people you take away their Freedoms or you're you're impeding them From living their free life that's where The line is and and we were never there Before we were never having those Conversations it wasn't even part of it Now post Donald Trump because we have This now we live in a world where we Have to deal with with all this Craziness and it was there because Corporations wanted to make money Because politicians want to be Re-elected and exactly like you Highlighted in your last piece how many People that are running for office right Now believe that the election was stolen Right and it's a ridiculous amount of Them and that's not because of loose Change that's because of a President Who Used Fox News to propagate lies the American people and this is a trend Throughout current American history and New Media where these or administrations

Are using media to lie to the American People to propagate for their own profit And personal growth and then they just Get to retire and go do whatever they Want to do and and so of course people Are starting to get pissed and so yes it Is information yes it does stir stuff up But I wasn't into conspiracy theories Before Loose Change I'm not into Conspiracy theories afterwards because I Don't believe it's a conspiracy theory I I believe these are things that we Actually need to talk about that these Are actually things that are happening In our country and and as Joan just Supported me on like we know that the American government was lying to us About the war in Iraq and no one's been Held accountable so where does that line Go again if people are hurt or people Are killed and their freedoms are Impeded in any way then that has to be Held accountable for but people having Conversations and discussing free Information we can't limit that Otherwise nobody gets to say anything Yeah I think Corey one of the things and This is something that I think a lot About is the scale is different so Social media introduces Uh a different relationship between free Speech and audiences or listening right There's no obligation to listen there's Also no right to broadcast there's no

Right in that sense sense of of being of The right to reach 80 million people Um we don't have we we actually have Laws against uh using broadcast do you Um uh inciting things and so the so for Me you know Alex Jones isn't necessarily Just having conversations but he's Moving between that and mobilizing Audiences and he was held accountable Right yeah he went too far he'd crossed The line and so now we have a you know a Consequence to that which is exactly Sure if that consequence is actually you You know reflective of how out of scale With or out of touch with reality the The internet uh and social media Companies have become like finding Someone a billion dollars it almost Seems comical but when it comes to the Scale of the internet more is different It's different when millions of people Are doing a thing versus even a regional Radio station and we've never had Broadcast rules attached to the internet In the same way that we have broadcast Rules for television and radio and so I You know what I would love to see is us Moving more towards accountability for People that have access to and are Broadcasting to larger audiences so Maybe it's the case that if someone's You know talking to their you know 25 Friends on a Discord server uh maybe That's not something we need to bother

With but when somebody is reaching a Million people and they have these calls To action and they are uh especially in The case of profiting from political Oppression are profiting from lies and Disinformation that we should have some New Uh regulations uh to ensure that they're Not able to hurt people and so I think Ultimately until we understand the scale Question and how more as different we're Not going to be able to completely Address well what is free speech mean uh In the context of the internet Especially when I could just say your Name and say you did this dastardly Thing and there's really no retraction There's no way to uh yeah but it's Gotten so much worse than that right Like we're we're Way Beyond that at this Point too because now you can have a kid Walk into or I'm sorry a kid walk down The street with an AR-15 shoot and kill People and you have half the country That supports that person and you have Political candidates news stations who Then fight for that person and what's Even worse is again it's not just about Groups on the internet now we have CNN And fox that no matter what the question Is it's going to be a debate from one Side or the other and it is sickening no Matter what side of the conversation you Are right if you're a conservative and

You're watching Fox News and you see CNN You're like oh my God this is just Absolutely ridiculous but if you're a Liberal and you're watching Fox you're Like you're in the same position there's A really interesting book uh one of my Team members wrote called Network Propaganda and it's about these media Ecosystems and how the media has Developed over the last 20 years but Particularly looking at uh the 2016 Election and the right-wing media Ecosystem is very different from left And Center media and what's interesting About the right-wing media ecosystem is How quickly they will coalesce around a Story in a narrative and if the facts Don't fit it's party over the news right You got to get the party line and you Know this isn't in the book but the Controversy around Dominion voting Machines and how if you said negative Things about Dominion on television Dominion is able to sue you if you're Saying negative things about Dominion on The Internet it's it's going to be Decided by the courts Um and and I think that that moment Where we start start to realize that These media companies are constricted in Some ways by these different mediums and The regulatory systems around those Mediums Eventually are going to be tested in the

Courts and you know when it comes to Left and Center media they do not have The same kind of Infrastructure online they don't have The same kind of motivated audiences In order to spread and distribute the News as the right does the right has a An incredible distribution muscle Through Facebook and Twitter and YouTube And so we're gonna see Over time how these different media Ecosystems interact and uh but I don't Know you know like I'm you know I'm a Big Joker I I get it Clinton News Network msdnc I'm with you I'm with you You know Um and I don't know if cable news is Really going to survive the internet era Um but what we're dealing with is a Difference of well do we want news or do We want partisan politics that looks Like news Right and some of this is uh I know I Can tell Corey for you it comes down to Well who's getting paid out and you know And and I agree with you we should Follow the money always follow the money But also I I think the light for me or The optimism comes in where the internet Is a huge International project And we could reimagine uh some Technology some design so that we have Room for news we have room for Fact-based discussion we have and right

Now what we have is social media which Is essentially trying to monetize any Bit of information that it can and it's Not designed uh specifically to spread Uh uh public interest information and I Think that that's where we get into a Lot of our problems because You know we used to rely much more on Traditional media to get information out There and now the gates have shifted and I wonder you know at the end of the day Are we going to be able to depend on Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and you Know Kanye's buying parlor we've got Trump with true social are we going to Be able to trust social networks to get This public information out there and if Not what do we built right uh and how do We get there and that's those for me are The big questions moving forward well Let's you know I want to ask one final Question in that world because it I know there's disagreements here but it Sounds like we we want a similar thing Which is to have free-flowing Information and conversations the Question is where do those conversations Live and what you just described Joan is A sloppy social media system uh doesn't Know how to manage disinformation it's Now uh being run by Elon Musk is running Twitter who is throwing stuff Willy-nilly at the wall Um

What where are we supposed to have these Conversations what one what can these Platforms do or is there a platform Where this this type of healthy Discourse can live or we just are we Just screwed uh Corey what do you think Well again I mean this stuff's always Been around right it's just more visible Now KKK existed before the internet and They had their little meetings and they Put on their costumes and they did all Those different things for me I this is An issue with information in the way That it's broadcast throughout American Society is that we just broadcast Hypotheticals like we'll broadcast Information about a case before we know All the facts yeah and we have immediate Like you know here's a car chase we got To cover it uh and so we've gotten away From kind of fact-based Journalism where We're just we're just broadcasting Whatever we can do to keep people's Attention what do you trust where do you Go when you're looking for information I Don't trust anyone like I I don't I I've Blocked every major News application Because I I kiss can't handle it's all Nonsense like it's not your phone what Do you click you wake up and what do you Click I read stuff about cameras I read Stuff about New York State legalization And I'm into just different articles I Let Google news feed give me stuff

That's tailored to my interests and I Block anything about Biden or Trump Because I just can't handle it I think If you support a politician at this Point it's basically the same as Supporting a football team so it's just Like they're just there so you can buy a Jersey uh and so for me I'm I What was the question I don't know I got Lost again Oh that's what it was sorry so we're Broadcasting hypotheticals right and her Question is how do we fix this right so There's I think the conversations can Exist online because even if they don't Exist online like I was saying the KKK They'll have their little meetings and So but it's up to the mainstream media To to really grow a backbone here and Start to and again it's part of the Conversation that we need to go and how We evolutionize the mass communication But the media we need we need to trust The media again and that's I think one Of the major problems in America in the World right now is that people don't Trust the media and that's because They're reporting on hypotheticals They're going to report for a political Base and there's no true information That you can follow anymore where you Would normally just clock into the six Six pm NBC News and get the World Report Uh that you can't do that anymore

Without hypocrisy and then and that's Again what I said at the beginning Hypocrisy is more visible people are Upset because they know the government's Been lying to us and it's proven at this Point over major things for at least two Decades now it's in my life and so like You know how do we hold people Accountable how do we adjust this and Again like Jones said let's focus on Changing some regulations let's focus on You know putting information where it Belongs and and like I said let's focus On and envisioning how the future Societies communicate accurately and Let's try to reverse engineer that for Our society and start to build those Building blocks but do you feel the same Responsibility as somebody who put Information out there as the mainstream Networks do I feel absolutely no Responsibility over anything no I mean I'm living my own life I'm living my own Life if you want to do your thing go do Your thing if you want to make because Again everybody makes videos and what We're really talking about is a Technological Evolution where people are Able to carry a camera and disseminate Information online and guess what it's In everybody's hands right now we have All of human knowledge in our pocket we Have a camera that can broadcast to Everyone in the world at the same time

And what do we do with it as a society And we're seeing it we're not doing the Right thing we're not growing as a Society we're making things worse so I Don't know but but you have a clear Distrust for the the medio ecosystem but You yourself are a part of that I mean 20 years ago I made a DVD I I don't we Don't have we don't post on Facebook I'm Not out there promote lose change I Don't talk about it unless somebody Reaches out to me to ask about it and I Only do major news at this point because The littler guys just are normally Tailored in One conspiratorial Direction Or the other for the right or the left And so I like to have real conversations With with people like yourself so we can Have a real conversation about this Stuff and kind of push it in a Direction So that people understand it I've seen Too much lazy journalism where they're Just like loose change is responsible For all the disinformation on the Internet it's like that is the laziest Thing you could do like you're not Digging into the conversation at all You're not even looking at the Information you're just trying to get Clicks and that's where we are at with Reporting right now we're just trying to Get clicks and you yourself know that You have to do crazy things you have to Go to Trump rallies and ask people

Insane questions that I would be Terrified to ask them in person don't Follow my spot Corey don't blow up my Spot it's crazy you're a crazy person Man but I love you and I really support Everything you're doing too and I just Want to say I love The Daily Show and I Jon Stewart was my [ __ ] hero and Still is as a veteran to be standing up For my rights when no other political Candidate is like I would vote for him If he ran that's the only person I'm Interested in I tell you I think he'd Have some backers for sure If we can't trust the people running These platforms uh how are we supposed To trust and use these platforms To work together I think journalists Have a huge role to play journalism Organizations have a huge role to play Outside of news media and corporations I Think journalists still like academics Have a passion for the truth right and I Think that we we are truth Seekers and I Think that that's an important thing to Hold on to in a time when people feel Like there's no anchor that there's no There's no truth out there that we can Access Um and in some ways I think that that Post-truth A society really favors authoritarians It really favors those who are willing To lie to us at scale and and oppress us

Because we then deactivate we then step Aside and and walk away from The responsibilities that we have to one Another Um So when it comes to someone like Elon Musk you know he's not your typical Homo economicus rational actor you Didn't buy Twitter to make money right He spent 44 billion for a product that He probably could have built on his own For less than a billion dollars but what He was buying were the networks that We're all part of he was buying the Networks of journalists he was buying The networks of politicians he Essentially bought the chess board that Global politics is being played on at This stage there's really not a lot of Ways in which anyone else could Um have that kind of influence rather Than being the owner of of a large Platform and I think that musk's uh Political aspirations in terms of being Part of the The global conversation about uh of the War in in Ukraine uh the what's going on In Taiwan Um at the end of the day are also being Driven by Uh his business decisions around selling Cars and who the markets are that are Going to buy these cars and he is going To be able to

Um You know uh gain some kind of political Favor with different governments if he Uh uses Twitter in that way and so I Think that there's a very big risk To allowing our communication Commons to Be owned by Single individuals that don't have the Public interest at the core especially When it comes to communication Um you guys are old enough to remember Long distance calling you know you want To call three Towns over it was going to Cost you 25 cents a minute uh you know We have a remarkable new innovation here Where we can call across the world I'm Calling you from Ireland right now I Mean we can call across the world for Free and uh reach our family reach our Friends reach our collaborators Colleagues and that's something I don't Want to lose in in this moment where We're going to see this massive shake-up Around what social media is how much Platforms cost and eventually how these Networks are going to change our society Especially our politics and so I think The time has come if we are going to fix This for regulation around uh truth and Advertising knowing your customers uh Political advertising online needs to Have much more oversight we do need to Know exactly how much money these Platform companies are making and where

It's going how much they're investing in Content moderation can they actually Enforce their terms of service And as we move into understanding social Media as an industry I think we can Start to Fashion a public interest Internet that will provide the kinds of Information and forums that people need In order to Participate in Uh elections and to participate in our Political systems but right now we're at A very very early stage and it's going To take a lot of work to build those Institutions Follow the money follow the pornography We'll get there Um and follow me on Twitter oh Self-promotion uh don't follow me don't Look for me I don't want you don't don't Look for me I'm not here I was gonna say Corey I can't imagine you're big on The Tick Tock no I I I I watched it for like A week and then I got tired I got an Instagram follower with 16 or Instagram Account with 16 followers I'm not I Don't do anything anymore I own a Business I make videos that's my life Well Joe Donovan Corey Rowe thank you Guys for great conversation uh the Healthy skepticism trust and blowing all That [ __ ] up I love it Listen to Jordan Clepper figures the Conspiracy from The Daily Show on Apple

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