Booknotes+ Podcast: Vivek Ramaswamy, “Nation of Victims”

By | November 1, 2022

At age 37, Vivek Ramaswamy has already built and sold several companies. Before he began his career as an entrepreneur, he managed to serve as the valedictorian of his 2003 senior class at St. Xavier High School in Cincinnati, Ohio, and was a nationally ranked junior tennis player. Then there was a Harvard biology degree and graduation from Yale Law School. Ramaswamy has written two books. His latest is ”Nation of Victims: Identity Politics, the Death of Merit, and the Path Back to Excellence.”

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[Music] Foreign At age 37 Vivek ramaswamy has already Built and sold several companies Before he began his career as an Entrepreneur he managed to serve as the Valedictorian of his 2003 senior class At Xavier High School in Cincinnati Ohio He was a nationally ranked junior tennis Player And accomplished on the piano Then there was a Harvard biology degree And graduation from Yale law school Promise Swami has written two books his Latest nation of victims identity Politics the death of Merit and the path Back to Excellence Vivek Rama Swami let me give you a quote From your book by Greg Popovich The coach of the San Antonio Spurs since 1996. the American experiment was always A test of whether a diverse group of People could govern themselves and be Free And many as have decided that the Results are in and the answer to that is No Why why do you think Yeah so it’s the heart of the question Of our time can the divided Democracy Stand this was the question that Alexis De tocqueville thought about a century And a half ago And I think one of the things we’re

Missing today is those intermediating Institutions that’s tocqueville’s Description for it these intermediary Institutions outside of politics that Can Bridge us together across our Otherwise irresolvable divide I think that that’s one of the things We’re losing this is actually the topic Of my first book so my first book was Woke Inc nation of victims the more Recent one is the sequel but one of the Things that one of the observations I Made at the end of woke Inc is as every Sphere of Our Lives becomes politicized From education to Capital markets to Corporate America We lose the apolitical sanctuaries that Bind us together whether we are black or White or democrat or republican and that Was actually one of the secret Ingredients to America’s success see Diverse democracies are not supposed to Last for centuries they’re supposed to Crumble under the weight of their own Divisions but America’s Secret Sauce was In part for example American capitalism One of the great Promises of American Capitalism was not just that it was a Great system to lift people up from Poverty I do believe it is that but it Is also one of these apolitical spheres Of Our Lives that allow us to bridge Together whether or not we are of the Same political tribe and I think so one

Of the things that threatens the Continued existence of that otherwise Diverse democracy is the ever expansive Force of partisan politics into every Sphere of Our Lives trickling down to Every small nook and cranny of our Culture and I think that’s what creates Some of the those threats to the Continued cohesion of our nation going Forward it’s a big part of why I wrote Both books actually chapter one in your Book you talk about King Richard Who is he what is he and why did you Start with that Well I started with it in part because I’m a tennis fanatic so King Richard uh Refers to Richard Williams who’s the Father of Serena and Venus Williams of Course he’s the guy who I think is the Unsung hero of the success of his Daughters changing the game of women’s Tennis as we know it today and I’ve Always been a Serena Williams fan and Venus Williams fan but what I loved About their story was the way in which He used hardship and their experience of Hardship to teach them that hardship is Not the same thing as victimhood I think That’s a big part of what made them so Successful is the attitude to say that You know what we’re going to encounter Adversity but we’re here to overcome That adversity now the tale that they Tell in the movie King Richard Will

Smith plays King Richard in that in that Movie it’s quite a good movie actually If you ask me I miss good movies we Don’t really get many good movies Anymore but this was one of them in Recent years that was actually pretty Darn good the movie version of it showed It was a true story right they said you Know these girls grew up in Compton Difficult part of La at the same time Time they were strengthened by the Circumstances they encountered Eventually broke through and changed the Game of women’s tennis Part they left out and this is what I Picked up in my research in doing my Research for the book Is that actually they actually had made Enough money their family had to be able To move out of Compton but Richard Williams moved them back because he in Court wanted to know where they came From but in park because he know he knew That those tougher circumstances would Harden his daughters Serena Williams is Probably one of the toughest athletes to Compete in human history and to say that That wasn’t part of the design that Richard Williams had in mind I think This is an important part of the story So why do I open the book with that well Look I think it’s a broader Parable for Where we are as a country right is Hardship the same thing as victimhood or

Is hardship what teaches us who we are I Think that’s the choice we face as a Nation today we were born like the Williams sisters in Compton as a nation Of underdogs today we think of ourselves As this nation of victims we began as Insurgents but instead as we have become These new incumbents that incumbency has Bred this new culture of victimhood and I thought there was no better way to Tell the story story then through Through a first personal story of in This case or a personal story in this Case of of the Williams sisters and the Williams family the embodiment of the American dream but a dream that in some Ways we’ve woken up from and we remember What it felt like but we forgot what That dream was all about and I thought The best way to open the book was Actually with a simple story laying out What that dream actually was at its core What was it like growing up in Cincinnati Well I grew up in Cincinnati as the kid Of immigrants so my my dad came to this Country in the late 1970s my mom came in The early 80s uh there there weren’t a Lot of people who had funny last names Like mine Rama Swami so people still Have some trouble pronouncing it but you Know I think it was it was edifying I Mean you go uh 50 mile radius of Cincinnati Ohio in any given Direction

You get a cross-section of the country Right so I’m not saying we traveled we Weren’t the most we weren’t necessarily The best internationally traveled kids Or even best traveled kids across the United States for much of our youth uh You know our parents were focused on Making sure they had a secure job Putting food on the dinner table making Sure we were academically inclined but The funny thing is you get a good taste Of the country just by driving a 50-mile Radius in any given direction of Cincinnati and you know what I I uh I Had a pretty diverse range of Experiences starting in public schools Including some that weren’t uh you know Necessarily as academically inclined as My family was but also it had kids who Came from much more troubled backgrounds Than I did and then at the same time you Know I think it was a culture that Didn’t necessarily prioritize academic Excellence and so my parents made a Difficult decision a financially Difficult decision included but a Difficult decision to send me to a Private school for high school a place Where we didn’t have to apologize for Pursuing academic Excellence but that Was a Jesuit High School and we were Raised in a in a religious Hindu Household and so I always had the Experience of

You know it’s a yes upbringing Ohio Always sort of being on the outside Looking in right as an Indian kid Amongst you know majority black kids on The basketball court as an Indian kid With a funny last name amongst the uh You know kids whose parents and Grandparents had grown up in that same Community in Evendale Ohio as the lone Hindu kid in uh you know in a Jesuit High School not knowing when you’re Supposed to stand up or sit down during The during the church mass but you know I think each of those experiences helped Shape me and got me to a place where by The time you know I was 18 I was more Uncomfortable with being I was more Comfortable with being uncomfortable if That makes any sense than I was with Just being comfortable in a native set Of surroundings and I’m really grateful To my parents for giving me that Upbringing because I think it’s you know Part of what allowed me to achieve what Little success I’ve been able to achieve Since then well did you see any Prejudice not about the fact that You’re not white did you see any Prejudice because you were smart and Ended up valedictorian of your class You think that there was the beginning Of this anti-excellence culture that I Think has now pervaded American life it Was it was born and begun to be evident

In the 1990s when I was you know at Saint X High School for example Um Yeah look is was there all kinds of Prejudice absolutely and and I think one Of the things this informs My Views Today I think there’s a lot of prejudice in America there’s a lot of prejudice Throughout human history but that’s just A feature of the human condition and I Don’t think it’s something that we ought To necessarily flog ourselves over Because if we flog ourselves over it I Don’t think we make the problem any Better and it runs in a lot of different Directions I mean I think there were a Lot of presumptions about whether or not I was supposed to be good at sports I I Tended to be I tend to be okay actually It became a somewhat for my age or Whatever successful tennis player it was A tennis fanatic as I told you earlier Enjoyed playing basketball at a younger Age but I think there’s a little Presumption about what an academic nerdy Indian guy with a funny name is supposed To do on the basketball court you know Did that come from white kids no it Didn’t it came from you know non-white Kids but of A different race you know I Think that there were there were Different prejudices more suffered by my Parents as immigrants and my dad

Speaking with a funny accent the Social Circles that you’d run in and I think There were implicit Norms of whether or Not you were included if you’re a Academic High achiever at a high school And what that meant for whether or not You were uh you know in the You know whatever in the in the in group Or the out group of a given junior high School or High School click and so you Know I think that one of the things that One of the lessons I took away from that Probably stuck with me subconsciously is That I don’t think that Concepts like Prejudice or bigotry or racism even run In a unidirectional direction that they That that’s a one-way Street I think It’s a complex plural phenomenon that Runs in a lot of different directions Most of it comes from different people Actually being insecure or uncomfortable With their own grounding and I think the More we see it with empathy the more we See it holistically rather than through Some top-down narrative I think the more Likely we are to dilute it to Irrelevance Another sports figure in your book Wilt Chamberlain why He was a guy who embodied Excellence uh So yeah I guess now that you’re pointing It out I did uh I did draw from a lot of Sports figures I think part of the Reasons I drew from sports figures is it

Sort of takes the discussion about the Pursuit of Excellence outside of the Partisan politicized context but you Know I think one of the analogies I make In that part of the book is that if you Take somebody who’s excellent at what They do you know no matter how much you Try you’re probably not going to hold Them back and so one of the things we Might be better served doing is creating A culture where we don’t try to hold Back people from being excellent through Some superimposed quality of equity Which is the new buzzword today to refer To the equality of results be it on the Basketball court or on in our classrooms Or in pre-market capitalism but instead To ask ourselves how each of us can be a Will Chamberlain in our own way and in The own in our own spheres of Our Lives To say that there is no just one way to Be excellent this is a mistake that a Lot of grown adults make is thinking That you know just because you get a job In the in the market society that just Because you accumulate a bunch of green Pieces of paper and you know I’ve had my Share of success in doing that Admittedly but to think that that’s just The uni-dimensional axis of success That’s one trap we all fall into I think Our culture falls into but then that’s What creates this Equity driven Redistributionist agenda that fetishizes

Green pieces of paper and I think the Wilt Chamberlain example or I talk about Musicians or other artists in the book As well is there’s just a lot of ways to Be excellent there’s a lot of ways to Self-actualized to be the best version Of yourself to discover what it is that You do well to be able to do it Passionately in a way that gives you Joy To pursue excellence and I think that we Should do we’d be better served in Helping people and creating the Conditions for every individual to Discover how it is they’re going to be Excellent in their lives how they’re Going to achieve excellence in their Lives then we are to superimpose One Vision of what it means to be excellent In America and then demand Equity of Results on the back end of that and I Think that we’re falling into that trap A little bit in our culture today but I’m not all doom and gloom about it I Think at the end of the day if we remind Ourselves of the true culture that Defines the American Essence that Unapologetic pursuit of Excellence of Individual excellence I think we can be just fine in the end And I hope that this book plays a small Role in In reminding people of that of that Dream how hard was it to get into Harvard and when did you decide to try

It It was actually I think it was pretty Hard as I remember the admissions rates Were pretty tough uh I think in Particular you know if you were an Asian American your expected SAT scores and Gpas were you know even on average had To be higher because Harvard had already Started implementing their racial quota Systems back then Um you know I think it was you know just A broadly competitive landscape anyway Uh but I didn’t think I was you know Early on in high school I didn’t imagine I was going to go to Harvard we thought We were our family is focused on me Getting a scholarship possibly to Ohio State uh or some other school in Ohio There were you know clear paths to Having College be fully paid for uh that Was a definitely a nice Plus for our Family but I think that you know we went My parents also felt that it was Important to see what was out there Beyond Ohio so we took road trips uh we Got in the car and we drove and we Wouldn’t you know pay money for plane Tickets back then but we would you know Hop in our uh Toyota 4Runner and we Drove to the east coast and we did Different college tours and you know There was something about Harvard when I Went there that struck me about the you Know it was almost the kid who gave the

Tour guide I still remember what he was Like He almost had like a level of Self-assuredness of confidence that you Know obviously this is the best place Even relative to you know we went to Yale and Princeton and you know I Applied and I think I got into all the Schools as well but I chose Harvard I Can’t remember uh I actually applied to Harvard early that’s what happened uh And then I ended up flying to those Other schools but ended up sticking with The one that I thought there was Something about that guy that was almost Annoying he was annoyingly confident Actually he was it was it bordered on Grading his level of self-assuredness Yet At the same time it seemed to be Grounded in a true conviction that he Was surrounded by the best and brightest Kids of his peer group on the planet and You know to tell you the truth I think There’s a lot he was probably right About that and it was my experience at Harvard I you know joined as a freshman In 2003 you get the best musicians the Best math kids the math Olympians from From around the world people who were The best writers Debaters hockey players Rowers you know you just name it you Have people who are eccentric in their Own ways but you know who were really

Exceptional at what they did putting This concentrated environment living you Know door to door with one another or Shoulder to shoulder with one another And three persons per dorm room It did cultivate this culture of of Pushing each of us to be the best Version of ourselves it was it was an Incredible experience that I had and it Was something so different than what I Had been exposed to Um you know in my upbringing in you know Midwestern middle class Ohio from you Know kids who had come from You know the elite corners of of the Upper east side of Manhattan to you know Kids of foreign dignitaries to kids who Came from backgrounds that were Economically even more difficult than Mine but who were just excellent at what They did be it playing the violin or be It you know rowing on the on the crew Team and I think that you know that that Environment definitely opened my eyes to Possibilities that I didn’t know that I Had it made me more ambitious it made me Uh want to strive to to be better at Things that I didn’t even know that I Could be good at and you know I think Part one of the things that makes me a Little sad today is even I look at Institutions like Harvard and Yale and I Went to Yale for law school and It doesn’t feel to me like they’re the

Same places that they were back then I Think that they have become apologist Institutions institutions that have bent The need to pushing the same social Orthodoxies as nearly every other major Institution and to me the biggest Problem with that is it’s almost just Boring it’s stifling and you know I Think that I would love to see the Revival hopefully at Harvard and Yale And if it’s not at Harvard and Yale Maybe it’ll be at new universities in The next 20 years that create that Culture of of unapologetically pursuing Excellence being yourself being free to Say what you want the freedom to be Wrong about it the freedom to understand The consequences of that and um you know I mean and I I had the experience of Doing all of those things in college and Uh you know definitely at a positive Influence in shaping who I became why Did you major in biology It’s a good question I Um universally do it again I’m not sure That I would but I at the time I was Just really passionate about the Genetics Revolution I took I took a Class in my freshman year it was called Biological sciences 50 genetics and Genomics I remember it and this is on The back of the recent mapping of the Human genome the idea that there were Attributes that we inherited that

Allowed us to become who we were but we Didn’t even yet Discover it but could Empirically through science that was That was fascinating to me it was Interesting to me it was even I thought Philosophically rich I mean there were Emerging bioethical questions that uh You know piqued my curiosity as early as That fall of freshman year I did end up writing my senior thesis on Uh bioethics matter the creation of Human animal chimeras in the lab Actually uh worked in the lab of a guy By the name of Doug Melton who’s one of The famous stem cell researchers at Harvard and around the world I did a lot Of Empirical research in the lab but Ended up writing my final thesis On a Bioethics related topic and you know I Think that that was that was interesting To me it was the idea that we Had an opportunity to know so much more About ourselves than even a century ago Human beings would have ever imagined They would have the ability to know only God would know we would have thought a Century or more ago and so that was Interesting to me I think that one of The things that um that left me thinking Twice about it though is that This is a change to the structure of Scientific education that I think is Really important at the undergraduate Level is I think

Kids who are intellectually curious About organic chemistry or molecular Biology I think they’re basically forced To spend too much time in the lab And I think that that’s a kind of a Fetishized culture in in the elite Institutions of what it means to be Scientists is to just the raw even rote Labor of working on a lab was probably Too much a portion of the education Relative to actually fostering curiosity About the about the underlying questions Themselves I would have waited the Education my advice to Harvard maybe They’ve acted on this in the last 20 Years I don’t know but would be to make Sure especially the undergraduate level To wait more towards teaching the Students how to think about those Scientific problems rather than Conflating that with the you know rather Rote experience of taking liquids from One Beaker and pouring it into another Uh you know I think that that diluted The power of the experience a little bit But only by a little bit I think it was Mostly a really positive one yeah my one Regret was in all that time I’d spent in The lab I would have rather spent Scratching an itch that I realized by The end of undergrad I hadn’t fully Scratched enough which was some of my Interest in law and political philosophy But you know no no harm no foul I uh

That’s why I ended up you know going Back to law school at Yale a few years Later and so I ended up scratching that Itch more than fully over those later Three years but I would say those are The reflections on my undergraduate Experience go back for a moment to uh Your parents where were the ramaswamis Or at least your father from and your Mother uh where were they from in India Yeah both of them were from Southern India my dad was from Kerala which is The southernmost State interesting fun Fact about Kerala is it is a communist State I mean I believe still to this day It’s the Communist party that’s in power That’s communist in name only though uh Though it did have a strong Streak a communist sympathetic Marxist Streak of sympathies even in the 1990s I Mean Kerala had by far the highest Literacy rates including including Women’s literacy rates in India it was Like well over 90 might even be close to 99 I you know I don’t remember the exact Numbers but impressively different than The rest of India but it had a you know Had a high Christian population uh There’s even a Jewish population in in Kerala so it had it was a little bit of An a little bit of an outlier from the Rest of India a little more educated uh Hadness and this heterodox political Streak to It For Better or For Worse uh

You know had a religious diversity that I think was I think much more Peaceable Than the religious diversity in other Parts of India my dad was from a really Small village in Kerala it was a Developed by the name of radical Jerry It’s a it’s kind of in the middle of Nowhere in the boonies of India uh we Used to go there as kids we used to Spend Um you know many parts of our summers There growing up that was important to My dad it could not have been more Different than even yellow high I don’t Think any of the kids that I went to School with would imagine what those Summers look like right I mean you’re Like I mean just visceral stuff right I Mean there were no toilets right you’re Squatting in a hole in the ground There’s a toilet paper you wash yourself With a bucket of water afterwards you Don’t drink the water at the table you Boil it twice over and then you drink it And still get sick half the time you Don’t eat off a plate most of the time You eat off a giant banana leaf with Your hands I mean it’s a small stuff That’s just small stuff but I mean I Think the big step you go to the temple In the morning and night wake up at 7 A.M do it in the evening there’s a whole Ritual and it’s probably two hours a day Spent plus you know minimum two hours a

Day spent collectively on the on the Morning and evening rituals uh it was Just it was it was just a different Exposure that couldn’t have been more Juxtaposed with my upbringing Evadale Funny thing is it was also quite a bit Different than my mom’s own upbringing Right so she’s spent a lot of her Upbringing in in cities in India from Mysore uh to Bombay And now known as Mumbai uh but you know She didn’t grow up in a giant extended Family like my dad did in the village so In some ways that was even foreign to Her Um but it was a diverse experience even Within the family though they both came From India uh and though they both spoke The same language their own upbringings Even in in India were quite different And you know they both came to the American Midwest I would joke around With my dad why was it that you came Halfway Around The World of all places To Southwest Ohio and uh you know among Other things he said that his older Sister had had emigrated uh you know From uh from India to the United States To Fort Wayne Indiana and he needed to Find a place that he could find a job That was within driving distance over Here so he worked at the GE plant in Evendale Ohio That of course begged the question of

Why she came Halfway Around the World to Fort Wayne Indiana and our family joke Is that it is the only U.S state with The word India contained in the name of The state so that’s Indiana for you but Uh but anyway most of his siblings ended Up coming over Um settled around Ohio Southwest Ohio Indiana Kentucky the Tri-State what we Call there the tri-state area and uh you Know he was one of eight siblings and so We had a very tight upbringing with our Cousins all of whom used to transplant Ourselves over the Summers to India and Then come back to the American Midwest For the rest of the year Do you have brothers and sisters I’m a younger brother yeah he’s four Years younger to the day actually So what is the difference between living In a Hindu family And then also going to a Jesuit High School You see both the Catholic side the Hindu Side how do people think differently in Those different groups Yeah I think um it’s a good question it Was one that my dad paused at before Sending us there I mean the Hindu part Of our identity was really important to Him I think that the differences were fewer Than you might expect and I think that Was probably my biggest Discovery was

That There’s I think a basic human need I Think it’s psychologically hardwired in This maybe even you know for for the Secular crowd here uh evolutionarily Hardwired Human psychological need to believe in Something greater than yourself to Believe in something higher and you know I think that when we lose our ability to Believe in something higher in the Conventional sense through faith than God or whatever you know we relocate That impulse to other higher Powers Instead and sometimes that could be our Politics sometimes that can be group Identity sometimes that can be you know Other post-modern secular religions that We fail to recognize as religions but Anyway I think that one of the things That uh you know Hinduism and Catholicism both offer are time-tested Models to offer you a way to believe in Something you know higher and more Important and bigger than yourself I Think humility is a is a fundamental Value in both Catholicism and in in Hinduism I mean I think you know Catholicism you you don’t think of Yourself as God you don’t worship an Idol but one of those Idols can be your Own ego right I think the lack of idol Worship that that would seem to be one Of the differences right because Hindus

Go to temples and Supposedly worship idols actually that’s That’s a myth that that’s a difference Because it’s no more than you go to Church and you bend your knee at the Church those are just symbols of Acknowledging that you are you are just A part of a broader whole that preceded You and that will succeed you that Will Was here long before you showed up and Will be here long after you are gone And you know I think that you know There’s my introduction to Quantum Physics I felt like it wasn’t the first Time that I learned I think it was in a Certain sense part of a Hindu upbringing The fact that you know you are part of The matter of the universe that comes Into existence but returns back to that Broader matter And that’s Hinduism in a nutshell you Know I think our modern understanding of Physics isn’t that different than I Think uh hindu’s understanding of Hindu Theology which in turn isn’t that Different from from I think many uh from A Jesuit understanding of the Relationship between oneself and God at Its core now you know Are there are there differences you know In the belief about the the resurrection Of Christ and exactly which story and How it happened and Book of Genesis and Whether it was created in seven days you

Know whatever we yeah yes of course each Religion is distinctive and different For a reason but what stood out for me Was a the ability to empathetically step Into the shoes of of you know my Classmates most who had gone to Catholic School from first through eighth grade Anyway and to be able to learn a new Religion as a foreigner but to realize Actually by the end of it it wasn’t that Foreign at all it was something that you Know I didn’t feel like I read the Bible For the first time or at least many Parts of it there was no first time There were parts of it that were even Familiar from my own upbringing though We had technically never read the Bible In many ways uh you know it felt like a Familiar text So I think that was kind of my biggest Takeaway from it is that the bigger Divide you know from a religious Perspective today I think is not between You know the Hindu and the Catholic and The Jew or the Muslim or whatever but Between uh you know I think those who Believe in the humility of a higher Power and the relationship to God and What that means for their willingness to Forgive their fellow fallible human Beings recognizing the ways in which Each of us are fallible in our own right I think recognition of our own Fallibility is what leads us to

Forgiveness forgiveness is actually a Core theme of the book you probably Noticed but I think that that’s actually The bigger divide is between the people Who lack that humility because they were Never introduced to or never had the Ability to uh you know fully Express Their belief in God as a higher power And the people who don’t that’s a much More meaningful divide than the Divide Between any people who were you know Devoted members of different religious Faiths how many young people today Excuse me do you think would know who Her right Horizon Horatio Alger was I Ask it obviously because you mentioned Him more than once not many I think is The answer I think they may not know who Our issue Alger was I think even more Worryingly they don’t know about the American dream that Horatio Alger wrote About And you know I joke in the book that the Way that we might get people to pay Attention to Horatio Alger stories today Is by reminding them that he was gay and You know we live in a moment where if You affix a certain label to someone Then that might be a wake-up call to get Someone to pay attention to them and so That was my attempt in the book to say Okay if you don’t care about what he had To say uh but you care about superficial Skin Deep identities then hey let me

Remind you of one of those hey here’s a Gay author that we’ve forgotten and Canceled maybe that’ll wake up a Generation of gen Z and Millennial Readers to pick up his books again but You know I think that the reason why is That we’ve we’ve forgotten that dream The idea that no matter who you are Where you came from that you can achieve Anything you ever want with your own Hard work your own commitment your own Dedication that’s the American dream That’s the Horatio Alder story and we’re Not a nation that tells Horatio Alger Stories anymore I think it’s less important that we Remember him particularly than we Remember the character of the stories That he told that’s those are the Stories of our country those are the Stories of our national identity those Are the stories of who we are as a People Those are the stories of who we are as Individuals As Americans and I think That we need to remind ourselves of that Story once again our national story the Story of what it means to be an American I think we lack a good answer to the Question of what it means to be an American in the year 2022 and one of the Things I hope to do is to fill that void With an affirmative answer not just Critiquing the uh the bad answers we

Sometimes get that it’s your skin color Or your gender or your sexual Orientation or your political party Affiliation or whatever it might be but To fill that identity with the Horatio Alger inspired Vision that you’re an Agent a a free agent an autonomous agent In the world who can achieve anything You ever want with your own dedication Your own free will yes that’s part of What it means to be a human agent it’s Part of what it means to be an American And you know I hope we can remember that Again whether or not we call it a Horatio Alger story those are the Stories we need to revive Not a bad thing that the Sun Sets on the American Empire Really Well I I don’t know that I I want to see The sun set on the American Empire but I Think the use of the word empire I think Is uh there’s many ways in which we can Use that word that’s why I sort of draw The analogy to the Roman Empire I think That one of the things we we might learn More about America By looking at it from the outside in I’m Looking at an Empire from a different Part of the world we might learn more About our present moment from departing From the present moment and taking a Tour through history and remind us of of Our travails being not something that

Was so foreign but might actually be More familiar than we know you know I Think that one of the analogies you hear Today speaking of uh San Antonio Spurs Coach Greg Popovich is you know one of The things he said was that sometimes he Worries that we’re Rome Uh referring to the decline of the American experiment and analogizing that To the fall of Rome one of the things I Did in in this book was in preparing to Write it and the research I did for the Book it reminded me actually that there Actually wasn’t one rise and one fall of Rome There were many Rises and there were Many Falls and I think so too it is true For the American experiment as well There have been many Rises and there Have been many Falls And I think that that’s I at least find That heartening I find it inspiring to Say that you know it’s not like we’re in One unidirectional slide of the American Experiment we might be at a local Nader I acknowledge that I think many of our Fellow Americans would too But that doesn’t mean it’s the end of The road it means that it might be one Of those moments where we look in the Mirror and ask ourselves who we are and ReDiscover who we are and so you know I Think the Roman Empire had many of those Rises and Falls it’s part of why I tell

The story of the Punic Wars the wars Between let’s say Rome and Carthage I Think it’s a good reminder speaking of Humility uh we talked about it in the Individual context of individual Humility I think we owe it to ourselves To have some national humility too you Know Popovich didn’t mean it Flatteringly says where he says Sometimes I wonder if we are Rome one of The questions I ask in the book is Whether we should be so lucky has to be Rome Roman in the Roman Empire depending On how you measured it lasted in time Scales measured not in even decades or Centuries but in Millennia or in in over A thousand years We haven’t gotten there yet we might be Sooner asking ourselves whether or not Not the question of whether we are Rome But whether we are Carthage and by the Way whether Taiwan might be our Sicily That’s a separate geopolitical question We can get into But um you know I think that’s why I Think the tour through history was Useful in one sense we might worry that We’re Rome that we may be falling when In fact There’s not one one fall where there’s Many Rises and many Falls of Roman of America so that’s the good part the bad Part is that we should be so lucky as to Be Rome we might actually be Carthage

But we talk a lot you know I think even Uh you know a lot of Americans today Like to talk about the importance of Learning our history and sometimes I Even fall into this trap talk about Learning our history but rather than Using the book to preach about how Important it is to learn our history I Devoted some of that air time to Reminding ourselves of that history Itself post Recon post-civil War Reconstruction history in the United States Untold or unremembered stories in The in the Rises and Falls of the Roman Empire and then we come back to the American Empire and say that you know What even the analogy of whether the sun Is sitting on the American Empire might Be an inept analogy the question is Actually not whether the sun sets but Maybe if the sun sets we remember that It rises just another 12 hours later but What do we learn in the meantime as we Go to sleep and wake up you know we Might remind ourselves of the dream that Inspires us the American dream that Inspires Us by the time the next time That sun rises and so you know that was I think part of my goal in the book in Going through history is not to you know This is not a history book but there is A lot of history in the book and I hope That it teaches us not something just About history but teaches us something

About the present I think that’s Probably the number one point of Studying history at all Without getting too nosy You’re 37 years old Could you live the rest of your life Without ever having to make another Dollar I could yep I would uh easily that’s That’s what I thought I was going to do Actually I did start another business This year but that was to address a Market need that I saw but yeah I I’m Fortunate to not have to worry about Putting food on the dinner table and Probably uh for my kids to never have to Worry about putting food on the dinner Table either and you know I think that’s Part of what motivates me to speak as Freely as I have because I do think that There are many Americans who do today Have to make that choice have to choose Between The first amendment in the American Dream if you will you know speaking Their minds freely and putting food on The dinner table if I’ve enjoyed as much Success as I have through the upbringing And education that I was given by my Parents through the you know fortunate Circumstances I have to be born in this Country rather than a different one then You know I felt like it was part of my Civic obligation to at least use that to

Hopefully speak in an unabashed and Unrestricted way But you know that’s part of why I’m Doing what I’m doing go back to the very Beginning of when you started to build Your first business How’d you do it Well so uh the the first business was Actually a um a small one uh it’s not The one that most people know about I Actually built a small company in College with a co-founder that was Designed to help other young Entrepreneurs now keep in mind this is After Mark Zuckerberg he was a year Ahead of me at Harvard had you know Massive success with Facebook there was A a boom of Youth entrepreneurship you Know on Harvard’s campus and elsewhere And so my co-founder Travis May and I Set up a business that created an online Platform that helped young Thunder young Founders connect with sources of capital And through other services on the Internet through an internet platform That model since became popularized by Others it was acquired for you know what Was a small sum of money the scheme of Things a big sum of money to us at the Time but that was my first that was the First business uh it was called campus Venture Network that uh it’s probably Probably the one business that I started That no one knows about uh is that

Because we did it at the age of uh 22. How did you start October go back go Back to house literally what was your First step Well my first step was actually I was on A bus in China with uh with the guy who Ended up becoming my co-founder we were Both part of the Harvard College and Asia program and one of the themes of That spring was how do uh you know how Would universities spur more youth Entrepreneurship and we thought this was A a trend we were going to see in the American economy and possibly the global Economy we were there in China we were Seeing the same boom there as well we Spent that spring break at uh at baydot Peking University uh that is you know Sort of the Harvard of China if you will And there was a similar Trend there and So the bet we were making was that and It’s one that’s played out was that Entrepreneurs weren’t just going to be People who were older that were industry Experts in a given industry that worked Their way up the ranks and then left and Had an investor uh in the form of their Former boss that would then fund them to Start a business entrepreneurs were Going to be young people who were Looking at industries from the as Outsiders from the outside in but that They weren’t necessarily equipped to Have ready made funding available to

Them this is before the Venture Capital Boom that we’ve seen in the 20 years Since and so you know there was a trend We saw there was a need in the Marketplace and ironically it was an Idea to say that we could be Entrepreneurs that capitalized on Actually the trend of Entrepreneurship Itself so that was the first business And I learned a lot from it you know it It didn’t end up you know nearly as big As as we you know hoped and dreamed that It was going to be like the next Facebook or something like that but it Was it was something of a success uh you Know we we built it it was Revenue Generating business built a great and Growing team had an acquirer that that Allowed us all to you know pocket some Pocket some nice uh you know change out Of the out of that transaction but That’s kind of what got my feet wet in Entrepreneurship and then the first you Know I would say substantial business That I started was actually a biotech Company that built on my bioscience Background uh from you know my undergrad Years I had become a biotech investor After I graduated from college I saw Some industry failures in the Biotech Industry That that bothered me I mean they got Under my skin actually the ways in which You know if you were a scientist at a

Big company like Pfizer or GSK or Whatever If you took a risk And you succeeded at delivering a Blockbuster drug you weren’t really Participating personally in any of that Upside But if you took that same risk and you Failed somehow that was actually going To you know result in job security risk For you and so what did that create It created an entire culture where People didn’t take those risks it Created a bureaucratic managerial Culture of mediocrity and so the Business I started Roy event in 2014 was Designed to Buck that Trend to say that Hey there’s a bunch of drugs that these Big Pharma companies weren’t developing Because of institutional bias but which Had strong rationale behind them great We could even license them from those Companies and develop them but we could Also do it by hiring scientists and Drug Developers who would get skin in the Game upside in the projects they Actually worked on that incentivized Them to take those risks in a way that Wasn’t true at the time in big Pharma And so you know royban um you know Bucked an industry Trend uh you know it Did the thing that we noticed I was Talking about earlier is entrepreneur Younger younger entrepreneurs in my late

20s that started this biopharmaceutical Company and uh and you know I’m I’m Proud of what it accomplished in the Seven years thereafter uh it’s actually Almost been nine years now but seven Years that I let it for CEO after Founding the company in 2014 and you Know we got a number of medicines that We developed that ended up becoming FDA Approved products I think five of them In fact royvent itself is a Multi-billion dollar company today uh It’s spin-offs have have had success Um as well and so you know I was that Was my first experience in having I Would say larger scale impact as an Entrepreneur what what does the name Royiven mean Ah yeah it was a uh It was a double entender so so the ROI Referred to return on investment and the Vant referred to Advantage so the Advantage of unlocking the return on Investment in drug development by Aligning these incentives in the way That I described but then it was also a Holding company right so with subsidiary Companies why was that the structure Because the whole point was to give Those scientists and Drug developers Equity in their projects and so each of Those little units those pods were Called Vance Uh and so those are like the children

Company but the parent company uh was Was Roy events it was a it was a double Entender on the French word ra so it’s Like sort of the the king the parent of Of uh the children companies that we Formed and over the time I led the Company I think there were 20 of those Children companies that we formed Underneath the umbrella but that was Where the uh the name came from any idea How many millionaires were made out of Your company Oh that’s a great question Um A lot is the answer Um but I don’t uh but I I’d have to give You I’d have to get back to you on an Exact number I haven’t tabulated that Statistic but broadly speaking I am I’m Proud of I’m proud of I’m probably most Proud of the fact that there’s I should Not surprise you I guess as a biotech Entrepreneur of the medicines that we Developed and the impact they’re having On patients but there was definitely a Big side effect of of creating you know I think life-changing wealth for uh you Know the people who were part of that Journey and the people who played Critical roles in getting those drugs Developed too Yeah tell us a couple of those drugs What do they do Yeah so um so I actually start with the

Story I think it’s actually important to Start with one that failed right it was It was actually a drug that failed early In life and I’ll tell you about some of Them that are that are that are approved Drugs today so one of the first drugs I Worked on was a drug for Alzheimer’s Disease that we thought had promise but Knew it was a risk there’s no certainty That it’s going to work in fact most Drugs for Alzheimer’s fail we did the Whole phase three study we flipped the Cards it didn’t work so that was Actually one of the early experiences That also taught us that said you know What that’s what drug development’s all About the whole point is to have a Portfolio of drugs and and have a number That end up going on and succeeding and So we focused on other areas like Alzheimer’s disease that were under Addressed by other big Pharma companies You know one of the big areas we ended Up focusing on was women’s health Conditions there’s there’s a uh you know Drug that we you know put into the late Stages of development that was designed To treat endometriosis and uterine Fibroids and if it was delivered in a Different way at a different dose it was Also eligible as a potential drug to Treat prostate cancer for men so that Was a bit you know interesting right it Runs the whole Spectrum you know when it

Was treating women yeah it was it’s Complicated but you know at a different Dose with a different and with a Different combination therapy but if you Give it as a monotherapy at a higher Dose it appeared to be an eligible drug Treat prostate cancer All three of those indications are Approved indications for that drug today FDA approved and there was another drug We developed in an area that wasn’t very Sexy for big Pharma but that afflicts a Lot of older people overactive bladder You know I learned a lot about through My development of drugs for Alzheimer’s Disease about the unmet needs that Patients have from nursing homes to Living in their own homes for of Overactive bladder and and that’s a big Problem amongst elderly Americans and a Lot of the drugs that were used to treat It had Undesirable side effects for those Patients you know and and you know Without going into the biology of it Let’s just say that was that was an Unaddressed problem so we put a drug Into development for overactive bladder Into phase three development that ended Up becoming an approved drug thereafter As well there was actually one one Therapy that we worked on in Collaboration with Duke University That nobody else seemed interested in

Working on why well because there’s There’s fewer than 20 kids a year who Were born with this genetic condition And the sad part about it was that It’s a uniformly fatal condition Actually 100 of kids if left untreated Would die before the age of three with That disease it was devastating genetic Disease but there’s only 20 of them Which made it not an area that was Particularly sexy again for the rest of Pharma to focus on we said that’s Exactly the kind of area where we could Have a differential impact and so that Was the area where we partnered with Duke to take that therapy that they had Pioneered to take that over you know Over the drug development process and Eventually did end up crossing the FDA Approval Finish Line uh you know Roy Even so some of those drugs were uh Partner or I should say divested in a Transaction with a large Japanese Pharmaceutical company there was another Drug that Roy went on to develop on its Own which is a drug for the treatment of Psoriasis a an FDA approved product Today as well and you know I think one Of the things that I think everyone who Works at Roy even just proud of is to Say that we looked at developing drugs In areas where other people were too Timid to develop those drugs or that They were areas that were not important

Enough for the institutional or Managerial class in conventional Pharma And you know what we said is if we can Make a difference and build a business Around it we would do it with pride and With dignity and you know I think at the End of the day with success as well and So uh you know I learned a lot during Those seven years I’m incredibly Grateful to to you know my colleagues And partners who taught me a lot but That was a phase of my career that I Hung the Jersey on in early 2021 When I said that uh you know I was done With my biotech CEO career and was going To move on to a different phase Scratching that itch at the intersection Of Law and political philosophy that we Talked about earlier uh offering my Perspectives on what I saw as a new Problematic Trend I would go so far as To call it a new cancer not a biological Cancer But a cultural cancer that I felt Threatened both capitalism and democracy Which was this new rise of politicized Capitalism that I felt was going to be Bad both for democracy and for the Private sector and our economy and That’s what led me to the next phase of My journey starting with writing the the Pair of books that I did Wok Inc and Nation of victims Earlier you talked about humility and I

Want to go through three or four things About you Your valedictorian in your high school Class you went to Harvard You went to Yale law school you I’ll do I’ll say this you don’t have to quarrel With this you’ve made Millions since You’ve been in the business world how in The world can somebody 37 years old Remain humble You know I think uh I’ve also failed a Lot at a lot of things I’ve done along The way uh I mean it’s not as a joke It’s like a true story I uh I had a Short-lived career as a stand-up Comedian uh before after law school and Before I started my biotech company boy Was that hard and I thought that would Be fun to do that was humbling uh yeah I Mean the development of the Alzheimer’s Drug that was I mean that was a colossal Humbling when my face had been on the Cover of Forbes Magazine not long before That drug ended up failing I mean that Felt uh you know for me at the time he Was ego bruising but I think it’s good To have your ego bruised uh once in a While and so one of the things I try to Keep doing is is pushing myself to you Know for for two reasons I think one is Pushing myself to do things where I’m Not automatically set up for Success Someone could argue that I’m set up for Failure I mean even the new business

I’ve started strive I mean it’s a it’s a Many people would say too daunting of an Undertaking to to you know take a look At this industry of passive asset Management and proxy voting it’s too big Of a mountain to climb I I believe in Daring to do things that you’re not Supposed to do and I think that there’s Two reasons why one is that It’s a great way to stay humble you can Coddle yourself just by setting yourself Up for success and then succeeding at The achievable one of the things about Going after the unachievable is that Certain number of times you’re destined To fail and that failure is going to Teach you more than your successes do And one of those things that’s going to Teach you is humility I think the second reason why is that Sometimes you might actually just manage To do it and I think that that makes Some of those things worth doing as well And so I think it’s this you know it’s This unique tension between audacity and Humility I don’t view those as opposites I actually view them as complementary There are two sides of the same coin They go together I think you can’t quite Be uh at least I can’t be humble without Being audacious but I couldn’t be Successful in being audacious without That humility as well And um you know I think every time do I

Sort of let it get to my head once in a While Sure I do it’s hard not to Um but I think do I pretty quickly get Smacked down by uh failure and Experience uh yes I do that happens Pretty frequently uh not least of which Comes from some of my family members my Wife included you know it’s important And my friends included uh and so I Think it’s important one of the things I’m most grateful for is surrounding Myself with people who will honestly Unabashedly and in an unvarnished way uh Tell me when uh when anything when it’s Getting to my head and put me back in my Place as I should be and and uh yeah I Have to also say that I think um leaving New York City uh years ago at this point Was uh was good ahead of having kids we Decided we didn’t want to raise our kids In Manhattan so in 2019 we left New York And moved back to Ohio where we’re Raising our two kids now uh both of them Have since been born And you know that was I think a I think that was that I mean having kids Was humbling having kids was part of What keeps us humble I mean that’s There’s so much of that that’s not in Your control right you just seed your The most important thing in your life to A higher power and to you know to to Destiny to determine for you you know

Who your kids are and what what God Gives you and I think that there’s Nothing that makes you more humble than Having to surrender yourself to You know the fact that you know are you Are you even going to be blessed with Children what are they what are they are They going to be healthy are they going To be you know are they going to be uh You know agents in the world that are Able to forge their own way that’s not Something that anyone who’s at kids will Tell you we’re learning it now too That’s not something you control it’s Something you can guide something that You can uh you know create the Conditions that allow them to thrive but That’s about it if that doesn’t teach You humility I don’t know what does but I think you know leaving New York City Coming to Ohio to raise those to raise Our kids Um you know I think has been you know Part of what allows us to not get Wrapped up in the you know world of of Elite land all the time as well where’d You meet your wife Uh we met uh we met in Elite land and we Met at Yale uh you know I think uh she Was my next-door neighbor she was uh in Med school I was in law school actually We lived in the same building by Coincidence uh we’re both vegetarian That was a big part of why I think our

One of our first our first date actually Was at the vegetarian restaurant right Across the street from that apartment Building where I used to get most of my Meals uh Claire’s in uh in New Haven on College Street so that was uh that was How my wife and I we actually met at a Party but we ended up discovering we Lived uh almost right next to each other In the same apartment building and Um yeah pretty immediately hit it off And it wasn’t long before we knew that That was where that was where the story Was gonna you know that was where the Story was going to go Was there a book in your life early That made a big impact on you Yeah I think It was one it was kind of going back to The earlier conversation so there’s a There’s an ancient Hindu text called the Mahabharata which tells sort of the Ancient legend of a family of kings and And sort of the dynastic struggle Between two wings of the family who who Struggle over their historic Kingdom And I think reading that book uh growing Up and then reading the Bible actually When I was in in high school as I said As a non-catholic kid at the Catholic School I think the juxtaposition of the Two definitely Um Definitely influenced me in a big way to

Understand that the you know the Struggles that we go through as Individuals uh you know our hunger for Purpose and meaning and identity that Feels so unique in the to us in the Moments that we’re going through them Are not at all unique in fact this is The story of The Human Condition uh and The story of The Human Experience Whether in the Hindu tradition or in the Judeo-christian one and uh you know I Think I think the ability to be an Adolescent who was going through you Know your own struggles and search for Identity and meaning and purpose to be Able to read about the great iconic Stories and in my own cultural tradition But that of it you know what we would Felt like a different cultural Tradition At the same time you know I think those Were uh those are probably the two books I mean they’re iconic historical books In in each religious tradition uh but You know it probably had more of an Impact on me than anything else I want you to close our discussion out By telling the lawnmower dispute Um Yeah I think uh it even hurts a little Bit as you ask about it Um So um so we’re visiting a family member This is uh long after I graduated from College started my business had to

Achieved some you know whatever success Was busy uh you know had had a little Bit of New York that had rubbed off on Me at the time too but we came back to Visit family members and we were You know at the house in the American Midwest uh We were pulling into the driveway and my Uh you know my older family members who You know were immigrants they were Taught to keep their head down to not uh Speak up and speak out were a little bit Annoyed that there was a new neighbor That had moved into the house next to Them who mowed the lawn and covers their Their driveway and law and went just as Easily the guy could mow the lawn the Other way just like the everyone in Their street did such that the excess Grass landed on their own driveway just Like our old neighbor used to do as well And you know by coincidence the next Morning The neighbor was indeed Mowing his lawn and it had indeed Spilled on to my family members driveway And so I uh did what they as you know Quiet put your head down and and don’t Make a make a Ruckus kind of immigrant Mentality with their mentality wouldn’t Do I I approached him I you know thought In in a civil way uh waved him over and Asked him a question I said hey would You uh you know would you mind mowing

Your lawn in the other direction so it Doesn’t spill over lawn onto my driveway Of my family’s house He didn’t like the fact that I asked him That question uh we had made some I Tried to make some small talk beforehand I said hey you know did you move in you Know is he looked young he looked about My age I said you know do you live here He didn’t seem to seem to like me asking Him those questions and he definitely Didn’t like it when I asked him about The law And uh and so this is you know keep in Mind this is in you know the American Midwest today and so he he Uh effectively puts his hand in my face Turns around and starts walking in the Other direction as though it was just to Say you know shut up and I’m gonna go Back to Doing what I was doing without changing My behavior so as he’s walking away I Said that look I think that if we need To settle this dispute another way we Can do that referring to you’re thinking Of a homeowners association or whatever This is a classic kind of question Now he Um took offense to that comment And he you know he charged at me and he Looked me in the face and he said that Uh you know the you know he’s used some Epithets and he ended his comment by

Saying that you’re don’t don’t you Forget that your skin color is Three Shades Darker than mine and if I need to Go in and get my gun and end this bleep Uh then I’m going to do that at which Point I decided I did not want to Escalate this dispute further so I said Nothing further and he went on with his Day Now uh that was a pretty jarring event For me but here’s the detail that uh That Matters and makes a difference to some People Most times when I tell that story people Assume that he was white He was actually black Three Shades lighter than me as he noted But he was black nonetheless And that story it stuck with me because It was a misunderstanding at its core What he saw was someone You know asserting a microaggression Against him for his race prejudicially Judging him what he saw as a as a Suggestion to go to the homeowners Association was a threat to use police Power against him which you know through I don’t know what experiences he or Others May in his life may have had but That was very different from what I Intended but the wake-up call to me was To say that you know could I have been a Little bit more polite about it sure but

It was also a wake-up call to say that We live in a moment where I had to see Him not as my family member’s neighbor But as my family member’s black neighbor And that was fundamentally different From what we were taught growing up to Say that you don’t have to anticipate Something about someone’s thoughts or Experiences based on the color of their Skin that you could just see them as who They were and the irony was as he noted That funniest part of the story if There’s a funny part of the story at all Is that I didn’t even know he was black Until he identified himself as such to Me he actually looked like I look looked You know not uh not much wider than you Look on this screen to me me but that That was clearly the lens through which He saw it and you know there’s some kind Of a happy ending to the story I heard You know a couple years later uh I think His uh I guess it was his wife that Talked to some of the family members who I was visiting and you know sort of uh Apologized and made amends for the Incident saying that she had talked to Some of the other neighbors in the Neighborhood by the way many of whom are Black uh both Neighbors on the other Side were black apparently and uh you Know I think Who had lived there for years as well This was a new family that had moved in

Relatively more recently so said that Look they had heard great things and That there was some great Misunderstanding and it was all mended Over But it it awoke me to the fact that the Culture we live in today when two Neighbors look at each other and the Things they’re supposed to see in one Another are so filtered through the Prisms of race and the other genetic Factors we inherit that it sent me on That journey to to ask the question of How it was that we got here But you know however it was that we got Here the path from this Victimhood-ridden culture bath back back To a path towards the shared pursuit of Excellence that’s a hard that’s a hard 180 turn and you know one of the one of The cases I make in the book is the path From victimhood back to Excellence runs Through an uncomfortable place It runs through forgiveness and and I Think that you know I haven’t yet gone Back and you know knocked on that Neighbor’s door And uh invited him out for a drink we Probably wouldn’t talk about the Incident but maybe we’d go catch a game You know maybe do it over a bite or a Beer and you know we’d move on and uh You know I haven’t been able to bring Myself to do that yet you know I I

Haven’t gone back but even when I do go Back and visit I haven’t yet done that And uh that’s something I want to do and I managed to write managed to write this Whole book even a book where I devote Part of a chapter to tell this story Sooner than I’ve been actually able to Uh you know to ask the guy out for a Drink and and see if we can’t you know Have a have a nice evening You know out over a bite or a drink I Think that’s more what we’re gonna have To see in our culture though is a Culture that may not get to the bottom Of all of our disagreements and disputes But may have a better chance of just Finding a way to acknowledge them and Then to move on and uh you know I think That’s the last best hope we probably Have as a country right now it’s the Last best hope we have in any Relationship I think I don’t know are You married are you married okay yeah so You’re probably I’m married too you Probably know this you’re probably not Going to get to the bottom of resolving Every last dispute you know the best You’re going to do is to call it a day And move on and I think that in some Ways we as Citizens are all in a Co-equal relationship with one another Too it’s not a marital relationship but It’s a different kind of sacred Relationship that we share with one

Another as co-equal Citizens and I think One of the things we’re going to have to All get better at myself included in That is by uh being able to say to our Fellow citizens that we’re not going to Agree on everything but we’re going to Lay down our arms and and uh and move on Together because there’s still more that We care about preserving in our co-equal Relationship than the fewer things that We might disagree even vehemently about For the last hour plus we’ve been Talking to Vivek ramaswamy from Columbus Ohio his book is called nation of Victims and it’s his second book and we Thank you very much for uh joining us Today Thank you very much Thanks for listening to the book notes Plus podcast please rate and review book Notes plus and don’t forget to follow so You never miss an episode Questions or comments we would love to Hear from you you can email us at Podcasts at C hyphenspan.org Good

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